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theskeptic

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Reply with quote  #1 

In the best of “progressive” traditions, Prefontaine and Korotash have decided to champion the idea of moving “forward” from the 20th. and 21st. century practices of specialization back to a Midieval town out of the 15th. century.  Prefontaine and Korotash have a vision of people raising chickens and bees in their backyard.  


Apparently they are blissfully unaware of the fact that with the advent of the industrial revolution, our society has moved towards specialization.  Farmers, on their farms, raise chickens, cows, pigs, and bees because agricultural communities are designed for … you guessed it …. farming.  Cities are designed for … you guessed it … urban living. Korotash and Prefontaine want to fuse two land uses which, of course, have long been separated for obvious reasons.  

Additionally, the poor “urban hen” deprived of the company of a rooster (because Prefontaine and Korotash don’t want to be wakened at 6 A.M) lives an incomplete and purposeless life as she repeatedly lays those unfertilized eggs in the vain hope that they will turn into little chics … only to have Prefontaine and Korotash in a burst of cruelty rip them out of  her possession and turn them into a scrambled eggs.  


Did that hen asked to be taken out of her lovely agrarian setting and the company of her compassionate thoughtful rooster and be forced into a life of celibacy in an urban area ?   PETA should be alerted so that they can organize a demonstration against this unethical treatment of hens.


In the meantime, someone should ask Prefontaine and Korotash to investigate the advantages of modern day specialization …. If they expand their horizons they will discover such places as Safeway and Superstore.  Both stores, on my last visit, had eggs you could buy for a very modest sum.  


It seems that there is an economic reason and a land use planning reason why Saskatchewan farmers are not flocking to Newfoundland to set up grain farms.   There is also a valid reason why we don’t have chicken coops in urban areas … and any farm kid who has had to clean the hen house can provide a simple and graphic explanation as to why we keep chickens on the farm.    


These ideas which are concocted at Starbucks after one too many Expresso Frappuccinos never cease to amaze me.
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OMG

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Reply with quote  #2 
"One Flew Over the Cock-a-Doodle Doos Nest"
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Reply with quote  #3 
Anyone who has lived next door to a chicken coop will tell you the smell is enough to turn your stomach. And to think it is these same types who complain about fire pit stench.
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Danapop

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Reply with quote  #4 
There are lots of communities nationwide that allow backyard chickens and they do not pose any adverse effects to their neighbours.  In my opinion, it will be cleaner and quieter than some dog owners out there.  Some people just don't many industrialized food sources and rightly so, given the conditions and many of these animals are forced to live in.
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Head Honcho

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danapop
There are lots of communities nationwide that allow backyard chickens and they do not pose any adverse effects to their neighbours.  In my opinion, it will be cleaner and quieter than some dog owners out there.  Some people just don't many industrialized food sources and rightly so, given the conditions and many of these animals are forced to live in.


And you know this how?

IOTOH have lived next door to chicken coops several times in my life and am here to tell you different. They are gross.
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Swallow1

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Reply with quote  #6 
Gross?  That'd be putting it mildly.  Why would anyone want to pay a butt-load of taxes, only to open their windows every morning to "enjoy" the odour of pig and chicken poop?
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Danapop

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Reply with quote  #7 
Evidence has shown the contrary with respect noise and odour pollution.  Simply because there are people who choose to not take care of their animals, does not reflect everyone.  Just in the same manner that there are poor dog owners who allow dogs outside to bark all night, do not clean up their yards on a regular basis or allow defecation on public property without cleaning it up.  

Don, when I lived in Northwest Edmonton, several people had backyard chickens and you would never know they were there.  In fact, there are two that are backing onto the trails of Beaumaris Lake.  I challenge you to find them.  They are very clean, quiet and discrete.  

Backyard chickens are not for me, too much work.  But, I do not have a problem with a neighbour hatching their plan (pun intended) as long as due care and intention is paid to proper control and upkeep and if this does become a discretionary use, I would hope provisions are put into place to allow for inspection and complaint handling.  
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wizeman

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Reply with quote  #8 
If you took a poll regarding this issue (stupid idea) you will find little or no support for this. How would you like to be paying $5000/yr in taxes and you neighbour decides they want to start raising chickens so they can save money on eggs and chicken. My suggestion would be to move to a farm and complete your agricultural portfolio. Can you imagine as a neighbour to put your house for sale and have interested families rushing to purchase the property. 
The city however would be thrilled at add another three or four bodies for enforcement and initiating policies, procedure and the windfall license fees. 
If you can afford to live in St Albert you can afford to purchase eggs and chicken from the twenty or so stores that carry these items.
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Swallow1

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Reply with quote  #9 
@Danapop - You claim that we'd have a difficult time finding out where your neighbours chickens were located?

We live across the street from people who recently left a note in our mailbox complaining because my spouse uses his remote start to fire up his truck at 5:30 a.m. during the winter months.  Worse still, we've been known to clear our sidewalks and driveway before leaving for work every weekday morning.

Keep in mind that our truck is gas powered - not diesel.  We didn't drill holes in our muffler or remove the silencers.  Our snow shovel has a plastic scoop and we only use the snow blower during daytime hours.

Now, with neighbours such as the ones I've just described, how well do you think farm animals would be received on our street?
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theskeptic

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Reply with quote  #10 
Dana:  You said "Some people just don't many industrialized food sources and rightly so, given the conditions and many of these animals are forced to live in. "

So what about the conditions of these poor hens in town living with some city slicker who doesn't know how to treat chickens humanely.  I've spoken to several Urban Chickens and the forced celibacy and the situation in which they keep laying unfertilized eggs have left them with severe depression and other psychological problems.  Some of these chickens have even resorted to reading Jean Paul Sartre and now are experiencing Sartre's "Nausea" and a complete lack of purpose and meaning in their lives.  

That's why farmers are not raising them in urban areas ... and keep them on the farm where they can happily cohabit with the rooster.  
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Danapop

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swallow1
@Danapop - You claim that we'd have a difficult time finding out where your neighbours chickens were located?

We live across the street from people who recently left a note in our mailbox complaining because my spouse uses his remote start to fire up his truck at 5:30 a.m. during the winter months.  Worse still, we've been known to clear our sidewalks and driveway before leaving for work every weekday morning.

Keep in mind that our truck is gas powered - not diesel.  We didn't drill holes in our muffler or remove the silencers.  Our snow shovel has a plastic scoop and we only use the snow blower during daytime hours.

Now, with neighbours such as the ones I've just described, how well do you think farm animals would be received on our street?


Again, you are assuming there will be significant noise pollution without first hand experience.  I am not trying to sway anyone in one direction as I could honestly care less about chickens.  I just know from my personal first hand experience, that if property taken care of, can be less intrusive than even a neighbour having a pet.  If there are strong regulations and people take care, I am OK with it.  We are all assuming that it is going to turn into a commercial farm operation, but that can all be controlled by bylaw regulations highlighting number of animals allowed.  It doesn't have to be as intrusive as everyone thinks, but it takes the right owner.  I would just hate to ban something that has proven to work in other communities because there may be a poor owner out there.  I don't like "Punish the Masses for the Mistakes of the Few."  

Uptake urban chickens is probably going to be extremely low, so the impact, I am confident, will be negligible.  

All that being said, this is certainly not an issue / hill for me to die on.  [smile]
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Swallow1

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Reply with quote  #12 
Strong regulations?  You mean hiring more bylaw enforcement officers and more administration to ensure animals are collared and tagged and charged appropriately?

I also know, from first hand experience, that I didn't move to a city so as to live next door to farm animals - noisy, smelly or otherwise.
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Danapop

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Reply with quote  #13 
That is your opinion and I totally accept that.  Like I said, I am not trying to sway anyone on this matter and it is certainly not a hill for me to die on.  I am just commenting on what I have seen and experienced in Edmonton where some people close did have a few hens.  

Cheers and have a great day.
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theskeptic

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Reply with quote  #14 

OK Dana … if there are people in St. Albert who can’t afford to buy a dozen eggs, I guess we should do something immediately.  Here are my suggestions:


  1. To ensure that as you say … the “right people” are the sole owners of chickens … they should have to pay for and  take a chicken raising course …and become “duly certified” urban chicken ranchers.

  2. To ensure that chickens are treated equally with dogs and cats … there should be regulation requiring owner to keep their chickens inside their houses.  (Most rec rooms in the basement are rarely used … and would make a perfect chicken coop.)

  3. All owners would be required to obtain a certificate from a pest control company every 3 months certifying that their chickens are lice free and present them to a by-law officer.

  4. All Children of chicken owners would be required to obtain regular medical examinations to ensure that they are lice free and not bringing lice to school and present them to their school principal.


I think with the foregoing flurry of regulations and an increase in the by-law enforcement department by several officers, we should be able to ensure those people who can’t afford to buy a dozen eggs are looked after.  This should only cost a few hundred thousand dollars per year … but the urban hen ….., which is the current fad, would be in place in St. Albert … and that’s critical because other towns have bought in to this stupid idea.


Alternatively, those who can’t afford a dozen eggs could go to the food bank.


P.S. Aren’t we lucky that Korotash didn’t win the P.C. nomination … if he’d won he’d probably have every P.C. backbencher keeping chickens on the legislative grounds.   
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Galt

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Reply with quote  #15 
That "lovely agrarian setting is depicted of times past when chickens and roosters were part of every farmyard.  Today's relaity have those hens sitting in settings that are far removed from what most people like to remember - and without access to rooster UNLESS the hens are designated brood hens.

Most urban backyard coops tend to have a certain number of chickens allowed.  That's a far cry from farm numbers.

Living in this city has become unaffordable for some and if cheap, healthy protein can be obtained from a handful of chickens (eggs, meat), why not let these individuals have access to them?  Who  knows, you may even be a receipient of those eggs.

Like Dana, I've been exposed to urban chickens and have to say that they were well kept happy animals.

AFAIC, allowing chickens will depend on what the city is trying to achieve.  More revenue or actually "allowing (gee, we have to get permission to eat) people to be as independent as possible.

Just because I don't like something in your "private" yard, should not give me or anyone license to become insane over what you have in your "private" yard.  Or have we devolved to becoming so uniform that individuality is no longer desirable?

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Galt

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theskeptic
  1. To ensure that as you say … the “right people” are the sole owners of chickens … they should have to pay for and  take a chicken raising course …and become “duly certified” urban chicken ranchers.

    LOL - Let's have course requirements for everything from how you place your garbage cans to how your property should be maintained to how to live with your neighbours.

  2. To ensure that chickens are treated equally with dogs and cats … there should be regulation requiring owner to keep their chickens inside their houses.  (Most rec rooms in the basement are rarely used … and would make a perfect chicken coop.)

    I like the idea of treating them equally to cats - there are no regulations.  Good idea. [wink]

  3. All owners would be required to obtain a certificate from a pest control company every 3 months certifying that their chickens are lice free and present them to a by-law officer.

    Wouldn't be a problem using diatomaceous earth.  Keeps lice away and absorbs any undesirable odors. 


  4. All Children of chicken owners would be required to obtain regular medical examinations to ensure that they are lice free and not bringing lice to school and present them to their school principal.

    This would be a huge misuse of healthcare funds as lice tend to be species specific. 


  
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theskeptic

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Reply with quote  #17 

Galt:  I must admit I find your libertarian arguments personally appealing.  However, here are the problems:


  1. If everyone is raising their own eggs and chicken meat … Draper and Crouse will recognize that the citizens have too much disposable income … taxes will go up … and the idea that these two could dream up a new public works project is terrifying.


  1. Secondly, if everyone is raising their own eggs and chicken meat … or getting it from his/her neighbour, there would be a corresponding decline in demand for eggs and chickens from Safeway et al.  This then could be “the tipping point” and start a dramatic drop in profits for Safeway, Superstore etc…. necessitating them to close their doors and move out of town.  Now you’d really be busy in your back yard raising everything from rice to herefords.


  1. Thirdly, if we accept your arguments and have no regulations for chickens … Draper would have nothing to do and have to move back to Ontario ….. just a minute … you’ve talked me into it …. let’s all get some chickens ASAP..
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Galt

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theskeptic

  1. Thirdly, if we accept your arguments and have no regulations for chickens … Draper would have nothing to do and have to move back to Ontario ….. just a minute … you’ve talked me into it …. let’s all get some chickens ASAP..


LOL - I KNEW you'd come 'round. [wink]
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theskeptic

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Reply with quote  #19 
Galt:  Ever since you talked everyone into buying some chickens ... mybirdie has been almost silent with no posts.  I guess everyone is busy in their chicken coop gathering eggs.  Can never predict these unintended consequences.
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Galt

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Reply with quote  #20 

I noticed.  No cluck, no squawk, no peep, no twitter.  Either everyone was stunned into silence that there may be away to fly Draper out of town, or they were careful with posting on Fool's Day or the upcoming weekend is creating an urgency to look for eggs.

Have a Happy Easter everyone.

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Swallow1

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Reply with quote  #21 
Seeing chickens in the neighbours yard would be a wonderful way for parents to teach their children all about life and caring for animals.

Consider the fact that we have no cat bylaws, thereby allowing them their god given right to run free.  What happens when one (or more) of these cats decides to create their own brand of Chicken on the Way?

What will parents tell the children who come out the next morning all ready to pick eggs for their breakfast - and find nothing but blood, bones and feathers in their place?

Let us also not forget the foraging animals who happen to pop up out of the ravine every now and then.  Wouldn't it be nice for them to have a hot meal - as opposed to digging through the garbage for leftovers?

Oh, and as demonstrated by dog and cat poop complaints, don't forget that we're not all responsible pet owners.  Building a chicken coop, tossing a bit of straw and seeds around isn't all there is to taking care of chickens.

If you don't believe me, just ask anyone who's been on the other end of a pitch fork in a chicken coop.

FINALLY, if a new bylaw were to come to pass in $A, where would one take their chickens to be slaughtered?
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Head Honcho

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Reply with quote  #22 
With Prefontaine out of the way, and Korotash too, chickens now highly unlikely unless Osborne wants to ruin his rep as well. An yep, nuttin worse than the smell of chicken shite.
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Swallow1

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Reply with quote  #23 
Slide1.JPG 
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Rick F

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Reply with quote  #24 
Can't stop from commenting;

Quote:
, nuttin worse than the smell of chicken shite.


Isn't that the smell at ALL City Council meetings?
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theskeptic

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Reply with quote  #25 
Crouse's Chickens Come Home to Roost


While Coun. Heron promotes her backyard chicken by-law, Nolan Crouse is wishing his chickens had not come home to roost.

Crouse attacked 6 candidates alleging they had filed false election expense reports.  That charge turned out to be frivolous but now candidate Ted Durham has sued and Crouse and the City may have to divulge the second complainant and possibly be ordered to pay damages.

Crouse instigated a lawsuit by Draper to sue Hennigar alleging he created the Thirdfloornews blog.  That turned out to be a frivolous lawsuit and now Hennigar is suing Crouse for conspiracy and claiming damages.

Crouse tried to prevent environmental testing at 80 Salisbury.  That attempt failed but now Steve Stone is suing Crouse for breach of his pecuniary interest obligations.

For Crouse, the chickens have come home to roost.  I guess he is hoping that Heron's backyard chicken by-law gets passed so that at least his predicament is legal.

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